[info-mcl] MCL Past vs. Future

Tue Oct 16 06:27:22 EDT 2007

I've used many IDEs over the years, including Symbolics and now  
Eclipse.  Has the idea of an Eclipse plugin for MCL been discussed?   
Eclipse plugins are out there in great variety and they can be  
designed to be very smart about code.  I used Eclipse on the PPC and  
now use it on my Intel Mac and it works just fine.

I do mostly Java these days, for various reasons.  One of the saddest  
reasons was that an NSF panel knocked the idea that I proposed to  
continue my research using MCL.  That may have been stupid, but they  
held the purse strings.

  - Bob Futrelle

On Oct 16, 2007, at 1:41 AM, Toomas Altosaar wrote:

> Good argumentation Alex!
>
> It is a shame that Lisp vendors don't realize the immense value of  
> an advanced IDE like MCL has. No wonder there are so many people  
> still using it.
>
> MCL's IDE can be included in end-user apps, and that increases  
> productivity greatly for the developer. (Can you do that with  
> Hemlock or Slime?) MCL allows one to concentrate on the problem,  
> and not waste time re-inventing the (square) wheel.
>
> Yes, the MCL vehicle comes not only with batteries, but wheels are  
> included as well. It is a smooth and reliable delivery mechanism,  
> where it easy to debug problems. Time is saved, and that is what  
> makes MCL so valuable.
>
>
>> On Oct 14, 2007, at 1:46 PM, Bradford W. Miller wrote:
>>
>>> Should the OpenMCL team be backward looking or forward looking?
>>
>> I don't think the issue is this simple. We should not just focus  
>> on the inside (Cocoa versus Carbon, 32 bit versus 64 bit). From an  
>> IDE point of view MCL is much more advanced and modern than OpenMCL.
>>
>>>
>>> Rosetta, legacy compliers, etc. will not attract new folks (or old
>>> folks like me back) to the platform. If the platform is going to
>>> thrive it has to offer something distinctly different than the other
>>> offerings out there. I suspect (but will not pretend to know) that's
>>> going to be full Cocoa suaveness, since the other platforms already
>>> offer platform neutral GUI.
>>
>> I disagree. As prof. I teach CS udgrad and grad students. I am  
>> sure most of us have realized Lisp is not very popular these days.  
>> Perhaps the #1 reason for this are these typical programming  
>> languages university courses where students get to really hate  
>> Lisp by writing some recursive functions in a week in order to  
>> learn something about the language. They typically try to use some  
>> free Lisp via SLIME. Once burned like this they really don't care  
>> if Lisp can access Cocoa or whatever API du jour. Believe me, I  
>> have tried. The students these days are used to and spoiled by  
>> Eclipse and Visual Studio. No syntax colorization, no  
>> intellisense, .. no thanks. I have tried to talk students into  
>> using OpenMCL via SLIME and the more recent Cocoa interface.  
>> Still, I get stares as if I would try to make them program with  
>> punch cards.
>>
>> In contrast we have used MCL in graphics courses and other  
>> contexts. MCL does have (and we have provided some of these tools)  
>> incremental syntax colorization, intellisense, strong OpenGL  
>> integration, etc. Students really liked MCL. It has a great  
>> lightweight feel to it and yet includes just enough handy modern  
>> features that students are used to from Eclipse.
>>
>> In this sense MCL is much more forward looking than OpenMCL. We  
>> all hope that ultimately OpenMCL combines the nice outside (Fred  
>> and friends) with a modern inside (Cocoa etc.) into a super great,  
>> Mac looking, free Lisp. However, do not underestimate the  
>> complexity of getting there. I think this is at least tow years  
>> away. Meanwhile, I think Lisp in general and MCL/OpenMCL  
>> specifically is much better served with Rosetta compliant MCL.
>>
>> Education is the key to attract new folks. There are very few  
>> people deciding later in their programming live to give Lisp a  
>> second chance. MCL 6 (or 5.3 whatever we would call it) for free!  
>> How much better could things be. This could be the best that  
>> happened recently to Lisp on the Mac. Limitation to 32 bit and  
>> Carbon, I claim, are really secondary to educational and therefore  
>> Lisp PR reasons.
>>
>>>
>>> To the original point, what would Steve Jobs do? Now is as good a
>>> time as any to cut the ties with the past. Apple gets rid of  
>>> "legacy"
>>> interfaces with almost every new model design. That may not be  
>>> pretty
>>> to legacy users, but it's a fact of life in this industry.
>>
>> If you really believe what Steve is saying you would not be  
>> programming in Lisp at all. Lisp itself is Legacy. Apple's  
>> direction is "program in Objective-C or else..." Indeed Steve even  
>> thinks that Java is legacy and I quote "Nobody uses Java anymore"
>>
>>
>>> The OpenMCL team will not survive if they stay tied to the past;  
>>> they
>>> need to build bridges to the future.
>>
>> Then they may have to drop the use of technologies such as Hemlock  
>> that are clearly pre MCL making OpenMCL look legacy. I think MCL  
>> IS the bridge to the future.
>>
>>>
>> Prof. Alexander Repenning
>>
>> University of Lugano
>> Faculty of Informatics, Via Guiseppe Buffi 13
>> Lugano, 6904, Switzerland
>>
>> &
>>
>> University of Colorado
>> Computer Science Department
>> Boulder, CO 80309-430
>>
>> vCard: http://www.cs.colorado.edu/~ralex/AlexanderRepenning.vcf
>>
>>
>>
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